Author Archives: venkatesalibrary
On Becoming a Yogi: The Story of Marion (Mugs) McConnell and her teacher, Dr. Hari Dickman
On Becoming A Yogi – an unpublished prelude into Letters from the Yoga Masters.pdf
An unpublished prelude to Letters from the Yoga Masters: Teachings Revealed through Correspondence from Paramhansa Yogananda, Ramana Maharshi, Swami Sivananda and Others, Berkeley: North Atlantic Books ISBN 978-1-62317-035-6
Edited by Jools Andrés www.joolsandres.com
“Mugs McConnell – Letters from the Yoga Masters”
https://www.jbrownyoga.com/yoga-talks-podcast/2020/6/mugs-mcconnell
Mugs McConnell – “Classical Teachings from Our Great Yoga Masters of the Past”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UNsfVfm6vM
Founder: www.soyayoga.com Author: www.lettersfromtheyogamasters.com
A Karmic Journey Unfolding
What is it that leads one to yoga? Have you ever thought about this? The yoga masters claim that if you are drawn to yoga in this life, it is likely that the seeds of knowledge were planted in a past life. You did some work “before” and in the interim state between death and life you arranged the circumstances for continued learning to occur in this lifetime. The Isa Upanishad suggests a lovely prayer to help us remember what we have already learned.
“May life go to immortal life, and the body go to ashes. OM. O my soul, remember past strivings, remember! O my soul, remember past strivings, remember!”1 Continue reading
Boris Sacharow: Germany’s First Haṭhayoga Teacher
by Laura Von Ostrowski
PhD Candidate, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität (LMU) München
March 15, 2018
Boris Sacharow–Germany’s first Haṭhayoga Teacher-Laura von Ostrowski-TheLuminescent.pdf
Boris Sacharow performs “Akarshana Dhanurasana.”
(Sacharow 1958. Vol II, Issue II: 27).
Svāmī Śivānanda Sarasvatī (b. 1887 – d. 1963) mentioned his “correspondence” student, the Ukranian Boris Sacharow (b. 1899 – d. 1959), in his book Practical Lessons in Yoga, which was first published in 1938.1 In 1937, Sacharow had opened Germany’s first school of physical yoga in Berlin.2 He probably never met the Svāmī in-person, since the famous guru most certainly never travelled to Europe. This is an interesting piece of yoga history in today’s times of growing appreciation for direct guru-śiṣya (teacher-student) relationships supporting ‘spiritual growth’.3 Boris Sacharow reports that, from 1937 to 1945, despite the Second World War4, he was supervising yoga students from approximately fifty German cities, either in person or by mail. Based on these early teachings, Sacharow published seven sequential booklets (twelve issues) between 1950 and 1960 with the title Indian physical training (Hatha-Yoga). Practical method of body culture in 12 issues according to Indian standard.5 These brochure-like publications form the basis of this study as they bear witness to the earliest practice of Haṭhayoga in Germany.
Historical Situation in Germany and Prehistory of Sacharow’s Yoga Teaching
In the early 20th century Germany, ‘Yoga’ had already become a common term. Owing to the well-known translations of Patañjali’s Yogasūtra of the time, it mainly designated Rājayoga and not Haṭhayoga. In 1924, the first German yoga school with the name ‘Deutsche Yoga- Hochschule’ (German Yoga University) opened its doors under the chairmanship of the musicologist F. Weber-Robine. Its teachings were mainly concerned with “Rājayoga in scientific and practical form” (Wedemeyer-Kolwe 2004, 143). It is most likely that the classes offered sessions similar to those of the popular New Thought movement of the time, which frequently referred to Rājayoga as breathing techniques, will-strengthening, autosuggestion and positive thinking, and did not include elaborate physical practices.
Title page (first edition) of the first volume of Sacharow’s booklet Indische Körperertüchtigung (Hatha-Yoga). Praktische Methode der Körperkultur in 12 Lehrbriefen nach indischem Muster. (Sacharow 1950. Vol I, Issue I).
Boris Sacharow performs “Uddiyana Bandha.” (Sacharow 1950. Vol II, Issue II: 43).
This suggests that, at that time, there was not yet a system called (Haṭha-)yoga which linked complex physical postures to spirituality.6 Thus, from its earliest reception in Germany, yoga was a cultural hybrid rather than a fixed concept. It was established without direct contact to any Indian yoga master and was, moreover, based on literature.
It is Boris Sacharow who presented, for the first time, a comprehensive physical method called Haṭhayoga to the German people, which he had learned from Svāmī Śivānanda. On the front page of his brochures, Sacharow described his technique in the language of the time, as a “practical method of body culture according to Indian standard.”7 He taught a different conception of ‘body culture’ than the Western one, which was mainly oriented towards worldly achievements. However, the few Westerners who framed physical practices in spiritual terms, such as ‘harmonial gymnastics’ or ‘expressive dance’, were convinced that body movements are spiritual acts per se, while Sívānanda and Sacharow made it clear that the body is but an instrument (to be kept healthy) for experiencing an Advaita-Vedantic type of self-realization.8 In terms of body techniques, Sacharow’s yoga system was unmatched in its detail and precision, and it was actually practicable. Based on Sívānanda’s concept of Haṭhayoga, Sacharow’s system connected many elements which are now part of modern yoga: complex physical postures, breathing exercises, meditation and liberation. It is quite possible that the Svāmī, who was aware of the Western fascination for body techniques, which he had come to appreciate himself, was involved in creating a practicable version of āsanas, adapted to the developing health discourse and facilitated by his Western medical education.9
The Characteristics of the Earliest Known Haṭhayoga Practice in Germany
It is interesting to note that Boris Sacharow does not mention any kind of sun salutation in his publications. His yoga practice consisted of the traditional number of 84 āsanas, which can all be found in Sívānanda’s book Yoga Asanas (1931). In addition, Sacharow describes (preparatory) exercises labeled with German titles, which might be his own invention. For example, die fressende Giraffe – “the eating giraffe” (see Fig. 4) is given as a preparation for paścimottānāsana (Sacharow 1953, Vol III: 23). Such workouts, which were to be performed repeatedly, might be inspired by gymnastics – to which Sacharow explicitly refers, if only in a distancing way, like Sívānanda. Sacharow’s approach also includes the special physical techniques from Haṭhayoga traditions, such as purification exercises, inner locks (bandhas), and breathing exercises (prāṇāyāma). Although Sacharow doesn’t name all of his sources, his teaching can be considered as a hybrid of different systems of practice.10
In keeping with Sívānanda’s doctrine, Sacharow believed that the āsanas, although occupying the centre-stage of his teachings, are just a part of a much larger step-by-step path, which is based on the eightfold division (aṣṭāṅga) of the Yogasūtra. Among them, Sacharow mainly taught prāṇāyāma and dhāraṇa (concentration). The yama-s (ethical observances) and dhyāna (meditation) are discussed in later volumes of his publications, while he merely mentions samādhi – “the highest immersion” (Sacharow 1950. Vol XII, Issue XII: 48). This combination of intensive health-and-effciency-oriented bodywork with elements of Haṭhayoga, medical rationalization, concentration exercises, and the goal of Vedantic self-knowledge closely reflects the method and spiritual path of Svāmī Sívānanda.
First and foremost, Sívānanda was a devout Hindu who had a Western education and spoke fluent English. Yogic āsanas are not a primary part of his teaching and it has to be asked when he came into contact with āsanas for the first time. In his autobiography, Svāmī Sívānanda mentions āsanas for the first time, when talking about his stay in Rishikesh, where he settled in 1924:
A student of Sacharow performs die fressende Giraffe – “the eating giraffe” (Sacharow 1953. Vol III, Issue III: 24).
“For maintaining a high standard of health, I practised Asanas, Pranayamas, Mudras and Bandhas. I used to go out for long brisk walks in the evenings. I combined physical exercises such as Dand and Bhaitak11 also (Śivānanda 1995 (1958), vi).
While at that time Sívānanda was doing a mix of different training programs for his health, which included āsanas, he writes about his early adulthood, prior to his stay in Malaysia and Rishikesh:
“As an adult I was fond of gymnastics and vigorous exercises.” (Śivānanda 1995 (1958), vi).
It seems that, while being trained in many physical activities in his youth, Sívānanda, unlike T. Kṛṣṇamācārya, did not undertake the practice of yogāsanas in his childhood. It is thus to be presumed, that he only came into contact with the practice of āsana later, maybe during his travels in India before he settled in Rishikesh.
In response to, but also in exchange with, colonial occupation, the cosmopolitan Svāmī developed a health-based method that followed the ongoing trend of the physical culture movement, while seeking roots in Indian spirituality. He branded it as a simplified, modernized Haṭhayoga and distanced himself from the ‘wretched mendicants’ who had previously been linked to the term.12
Svāmī Sívānanda taught Sacharow a combination of two systems which the German literary audience had previously – under the influence of Svāmī Vivekānanda – considered to be different: ‘physical’ and ‘mental’ yoga. By combining both, Sacharow’s Haṭhayoga was a holistic life concept, which included hygienics, dietetics (vegetarianism, no alcohol, no cigarettes), ethics in the form of Patañjali’s yamas, like non-violence (ahiṃsā), and techniques to train certain mental attitudes or abilities. It was his pioneering work that led to the formulation of a modern style of yoga in Germany. Indeed, Sacharow’s Haṭhayoga was based on a worldview and lifestyle which has been carried forward by most styles of modern yoga practised in Germany today.
References
Baier, Karl. 1998. Yoga auf dem Weg nach Westen: Beiträge zur Rezeptionsgeschichte. Würzburg: Königshausen und Neumann.
Sacharow, Boris. 1950-1960. Indische Körperertüchtigung (Hatha-Yoga) : Praktische Methode der Körperkultur in 12 Lehrbriefen nach indischem Muster. Volume 1, 3 and 4. Aalen/Württ: Ebertin. Volume 2, 5, 6 and 7. Büdingen-Gettenbach: Lebensweiser-Verlag.
Sívānanda,Svāmī. Autobiography of Swami Sivananda.Tehri-Garhwal:The Divine Life Society, WWW, 1995 (First edition 1958).
Sívānanda,Svāmī, Practical Lessons in Yoga, Motilal Banarsi Dass: Lahore, 1938.
Sívānanda, Svāmī, Yoga Asanas, Tehri-Garhwal:The Divine Life Society, 2004 (First edition 1931)
Tietke, Mathias. 2014. Yoga im Nationalsozialismus: Konzepte, Kontraste, Konsequenzen. Kiel: Ludwig, 2014.
Wedemeyer-Kolwe, Bernd, Der neue Mensch: Körperkultur im Kaiserreich und in der Weimarer Republik, Würzburg: Königshausen & Neumann, 2004.
Notes
1 See Sívānanda 1938, 116.
2 There is evidence that Sacharow only came to Germany in 1926 (Tietke 2011, 83). In this case, the statement by his successor Sigmund Feuerabendt that Sacharow founded his school in 1921 is unlikely. Also, the ‘school’ was a very small establishment, as it was situated at Sacharow’s home.
3 This is, for example, the opinion of Paramaguru Sharat Jois. Retrieved from: http://www.sonima.com/yoga/yoga- guru/. Accessed on: 25 February, 2018.
4 Sacharow did not seem to have been actively involved in the Nazi regime. It is still astonishing that he was allowed to teach his Yoga system during that period, as he himself notes that all things “mystical,” “occult” and “foreign” were banned by the Nazis (Sacharow 1950, Vol I: 7). He states: “Somehow I was able to convince the authorities of the scientific character of these doctrines.” Translated by the author. The German original is: “Irgendwie konnte ich die Autoritäten vom wissenschaftlichen Charakter dieser Doktrinen überzeugen” (Tietke 2011, 89). In his foreword to the first of his booklets, Sacharow emphasizes that he had supporters at the time and that, due to the circumstances, he had to limit his explanations about the learned method to a minimum of what was permissible (Sacharow 1950, Vol I: 8).
5 Translated by the author. The original title is Indische Körperertüchtigung (Hatha-Yoga). Praktische Methode der Körperkultur in 12 Lehrbriefen nach indischen Muster.
6 On the one hand, the well-known Theosophist Annie Besant recommended simple gymnastics in order to keep fit for meditation and, on the other hand, yoga-like breathing techniques as well as yogic postures like the lotus seat were used in bodybuilding (Wedemeyer-Kolwe 2004, 145f).
7 This is the subtitle of Sacharow’s booklets.
8Sívānanda notes: “Though the body is Jada (insentient) and useless, yet it is an important instrument for Self- realisation. The instrument must be kept clean, strong and healthy”(Sívānanda 2004 (1931), xv).
9Sívānanda reports in his autobiography that he adjusted the practice of the students according to their needs, even if in this case he writes about a spiritual, not a physical practice: “I closely observed their faces to see if they liked the work and then carefully selected matter suited to their taste and temperament and entrusted them with the work. Sometimes I had to do the whole work. I love the students. Unasked, I attended to their needs” (Śivānanda 1995 (1958), 18).
10 Sacharow mentions that he deliberately left out some parts of Haṭhayoga by concentrating on the āsanas and simple forms of prāṇāyāma while replacing the omissions by exercises of other types of yoga (Sacharow 1950, Vol I: 8), which he doesn’t specify.
11 “Dand and Bhaitak” are push-ups and squats, stemming from the Indian martial arts and wrestling traditions. 12 For a description of this early, pejorative reception of “Yogins”, see Baier (Baier 1998, 79- 85).
Reflections on the Self: Second Conversation with Krishnamurti
SAANEN SECOND CONVERSATION WITH SWAMI VENKATESANANDA 26TH JULY 1969: FOUR”MAHAVAKYAS”FROM THE UPANISHADS DISCUSSED.
COMMUNICATION AND THE BODHISATTVA IDEAL.
VEDANTA AND THE ENDING OF KNOWLEDGE.
[in The Awakening of Intelligence Part IV, Chapter 2]
J. Krishnamurti and Swami Venkatesananda, Saanen 1969
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZo0kPCAndg
Dialogue 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oByk2UgRkzc&t=156s
Dialogue 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV4uDaWhguw
Swami Venkatesananda: Krishnaji, we are sitting near each other and enquiring, listening and learning. Even so did the sage and the seeker, and that is the origin they say of the Upanishads. These Upanishads contain what are known as Mahavakyas, Great Sayings, which perhaps had the same effect upon the seeker then as your words have upon me now. May I beg of you to say what you think of them, are they still valid, or do they need revision or renewal?
The Upanishads envisaged the Truth in the following Mahavakyas:
Prajnanam Brahma: “Consciousness is infinite, the absolute, the highest Truth.”
Aham Brahmasmi: “I am that infinite”, or “I is that infinite” – because the “I” here does not refer to the ego.
Tat Tvam-asi: “Thou art that”.
Ayam Atma Brahma: “The self is the infinite”, or “the individual is the infinite.”
These were the four Mahavakyas used by the ancient sage to bring home the message to the student, and they were also sitting just like us, face to face, the guru and the disciple, the sage and the seeker.
Krishnaji: Yes, what is the question, Sir?
Swamiji: What do you think of them? Are these Mahavakyas valid now? Do they need a revision or a renewal?
Krishnaji: These sayings, like “I am that”, “Tat Tvam-asi” and “Ayam Atma Brahma”? Swamiji: That is, “Consciousness is Brahman”.
Krishnaji: Isn’t there a danger, Sir, of repeating something not knowing what it means? “I am that.” What does it actually mean?
Swamiji: “Thou are that.”
Krishnaji: Thou art that.” What does that mean? One can say, “I am the river”. That river that has got tremendous volume behind it, moving, restless, pushing on and on, through many countries. I can say, “I am that river.” That would be equally valid as, “I am Brahman.”
Swamiji: Yes. Yes.
Krishnaji: Why do we say, “I am that”? And not “I am the river”, nor “I am the poor man”, the man that has no capacity, no intelligence, who is dull – this dullness brought about by heredity, by poverty, by degradation, all that! Why don’t we say, “I am that also”? Why do we always attach ourselves to something which we suppose to be the highest?
Swamiji: “That”, perhaps, only means that which is unconditioned.
YO VAI BHUMA TATSUKHAM
That which is unconditioned.
Krishnaji: Unconditioned, yes.
Swamiji: So, since there is in us this urge to break through all conditioning, we look for the unconditioned.
Krishnaji: Can a conditioned mind, can a mind that is small, petty, narrow, living on superficial entertainments, can that know or conceive, or understand, or feel, or observe the unconditioned?
Swamiji: No. But it can uncondition itself.
Krishnaji: That is all it can do.
Swamiji: Yes. Krishnaji: Not say, “There is the unconditioned, I am going to think about it”, or “I am that”. My point is, why is it that we always associate ourselves with what we think is the highest? Not what we think is the lowest?
Swamiji: Perhaps in Brahman there is no division between the highest and the lowest, that which is unconditioned.
Krishnaji: That’s the point. When you say, “I am that”, or “Thou are that”, there is a statement of a supposed fact….
Swamiji: Yes.
Krishnaji: …which may not be a fact at all.
Swamiji: Perhaps I should explain here again that the sage who uttered the Mahavakyas was believed to have had a direct experience of it.
Krishnaji: Now, if he had the experience of it, could he convey it to another?
Swamiji: (Laughs)
Krishnaji: And the question also arises, can one actually experience something which is not experienceable? We use the word “experience” so easily – “realise”, “experience”, “attain”, “self- realisation”, all these things – can one actually experience the feeling of supreme ecstasy? Let’s take that for the moment, that word. Can one experience it?
Swamiji: The infinite?
Krishnaji: Can one experience the infinite? This is really quite a fundamental question, not only here but in life. We can experience something which we have already known. I experience meeting you. That’s an experience, meeting you, or you meeting me, or my meeting X. And when I meet you next time I recognise you, don’t I? I say, “Yes, I met him at Gstaad.” So there is in experience the factor of recognition.
Swamiji: Yes. That is objective experience.
Krishnaji: If I hadn’t met you, I should pass you by – you would pass me by. There is in all experiencing, isn’t there, a factor of recognition?
Swamiji: Possibly.
Krishnaji: Otherwise it is not an experience. I meet you – is that an experience?
Swamiji: Objective experience.
Krishnaji: It can be an experience, can’t it? I meet you for the first time. Then what takes place in that first meeting of two people. What takes place?
Swamiji: An impression, impression of like.
Krishnaji: An impression of like or dislike, such as, “He’s a very intelligent man”, or “He’s a stupid man”, or “He should be this or that”. It is all based on my background of judgment, on my values, on my prejudices, likes and dislikes, on my bias, on my conditioning. That background meets you and judges you. The judgment, the evaluation, is what we call experience.
Swamiji: But isn’t there, Krishnaji, another… ?
Krishnaji: Wait, Sir, let me finish this. Experience is after all the response to a challenge, isn’t it? The reaction to a challenge. I meet you and I react. If I didn’t react at all, with any sense of like, dislike, prejudice, what would take place?
Swamiji: Yes?
Krishnaji: What would happen in a relationship in which the one – you, perhaps – have no prejudice, no reaction; you are living in quite a different state and you meet me. Then what takes place?
Swamiji: Peace.
Krishnaji: I must recognise that peace in you, that quality in you, otherwise I just pass you by. So when we say, “Experience the highest”, can the mind, which is conditioned, which is prejudiced, frightened, experience the highest?
Swamiji: Obviously not. Krishnaji: Obviously not. And the fear, the prejudice, the excitement, the stupidity is the entity that says, “I am going to experience the highest.” When that stupidity, fear, anxiety, conditioning ceases, is there experiencing of the highest at all?
Swamiji: Experiencing of “that”.
Krishnaji: No, I haven’t made myself clear. If the entity – which is the fear, the anxiety, the guilt and all the rest of it – if that entity has dissolved itself, discarded the fear and so on, what is there to experience?
Swamiji: Now that beautiful question was actually put in just so many words. He asked the very same question:
VIJNATARAM ARE KENA VIJANIYAT
“You are the knower, how can you know the knower?” “You are the experiences!” But there is one suggestion that Vedanta gives and that is: we have so far been talking about an objective experience:
PAROKSANUBHUTI
Isn’t there another experience? Not my meeting X Y Z, but the feeling “I am”, which is not because I encountered desire somewhere, or because I was confronted with some desire. I don’t go and ask a doctor or somebody to certify that “I am”. But there is this feeling, there is this knowledge, “I am”. This experience seems to be totally different from objective experience.
Krishnaji: Sir, what is the purpose of experience?
Swamiji: Exactly what you have been saying: to get rid of the fears, and get rid of all the complexes, all the conditioning. To see what I am, in truth, when I am not conditioned.
Krishnaji: No, Sir. I mean: I am dull.
Swamiji: Am I dull?
Krishnaji: I am dull; and because I see you, or X Y Z, who is very bright, very intelligent..?
Swamiji: There is comparison.
Krishnaji: Comparison: through comparing, I find that I am very dull. And I say, “Yes, I am dull, what am I to do?”, and just remain in my dullness. Life comes along, an incident takes place, which shakes me up. I wake up for a moment and struggle – struggle not to be dull, to be more intelligent, and so on. So experience generally has the significance of waking you up, giving you a challenge to which you have to respond. Either you respond to it adequately, or inadequately. If it is inadequate, the response then becomes a medium of pain, struggle, conflict. But if you respond to it adequately, that is fully, you are the challenge. You are the challenge, not the challenged, but you are that. Therefore you need no challenge at all, if you are adequately responding all the time to everything.
Swamiji: That is beautiful, but (laughing) how does one get there?
Krishnaji: Ah, wait, Sir. Just let us see the need for experience at all. I think it is really extraordinary, if you can go into it. Why do human beings demand not only objective experience, which one can understand – in going to the moon they have collected a lot of information, a lot of data…
Swamiji: …rocks…
Krishnaji: That kind of experience is perhaps necessary, because it furthers knowledge, knowledge of factual, objective things. Now apart from that kind of experience, is there any necessity for experience at all?
Swamiji: Subjectively?
Krishnaji: Yes. I don’t like to use “subjective” and “objective”. Is there the need of experience at all? We have said: experience is the response to a challenge. I challenge you, I ask, “Why?” You may respond to it, and say, “Yes, perfectly right, I am with you.” “Why?” But the moment there is any kind of resistance to that question, “Why?”, you are already responding inadequately. And therefore there is conflict between us, between the challenge and the response. Now, that’s one thing. And there is a desire to experience, let’s say God, something Supreme, the highest; or the highest happiness, the highest ecstasy, bliss, a sense of peace, whatever you like. Can the mind experience it at all?
Swamiji: No.
Krishnaji: Then what does experience it?
Swamiji: Do you want us to enquire what the mind is? Krishnaji: No.
Swamiji: What the “I” is?
Krishnaji: No! Why does the “I”, me or you, demand experience? – that is my point – demand the experience of the highest, which promises happiness, or ecstasy, bliss or peace?
Swamiji: Obviously because in the present state we feel inadequate.
Krishnaji: That’s all. That’s all.
Swamiji: Correct.
Krishnaji: Being in a state in which there is no peace, we want to experience a state which is absolute, permanent, eternal peace. Swamiji: It is not so much that I am restless, and there is a state of peace; I want to know what is this feeling, “I am restless”. Is the “I” restless, or is the “I” dull? Am I dull, or is dullness only a condition which I can shake off?
Krishnaji: Now who is the entity that shakes it off?
Swamiji: Wakes up. The “I” wakes up.
Krishnaji: No, Sir. That’s the difficulty. Let’s finish this first. I am unhappy, miserable, laden with sorrow. And I want to experience something where there is no sorrow. That is my craving. I have an ideal, a goal, and by struggling towards it I will ultimately get that. That’s my craving. I want to experience that and hold on to that experience. That is what human beings want – apart from all the clever sayings, clever talk.
Swamiji: Yes, yes; and that is perhaps the reason why another very great South Indian sage said (in Tamil:
ASAI ARUMIN ASAI ARUMIN ISANODAYINUM ASAI ARUMIN It’s very good really.
Krishnaji: What’s that?
Swamiji: “Cut down all these cravings. Even the craving to be one with God, cut it down”, he says.
Krishnaji: Yes, I understand. Now look, Sir. If I – if the mind – can free itself from this agony, then what is the need of asking for an experience of the Supreme? There won’t be.
Swamiji: No. Certainly.
Krishnaji: It is no longer caught in its own conditioning. Therefore it is something else; it is living in a different dimension. Therefore the desire to experience the highest is essentially wrong.
Swamiji: If it is a desire.
Krishnaji: Whatever it is! How do I know the highest? Because the sages have talked of it? I don’t accept the sages. They might be caught in illusion, they might be talking sense or nonsense. I don’t know; I am not interested. I find that as long as the mind is in a state of fear, it wants to escape from it, and it projects an idea of the Supreme, and wants to experience that. But if it frees itself from its own agony, then it is altogether in a different state. It doesn’t even ask for the experience because it is at a different level.
Swamiji: Quite, quite.
Krishnaji: Now, why do the sages, according to what you have said, say, “You must experience that, you must be that, you must realize that”?
Swamiji: They didn’t say, “You must”…
Krishnaji: Put it any way you like. Why should they say all these things? Would it not be better to say, “Look here, my friends, get rid of your fear. Get rid of your beastly antagonism, get rid of your childishness, and when you have done that…”
Swamiji: …nothing more remains.
Krishnaji: Nothing more. You’ll find out the beauty of it. You don’t have to ask, then.
Swamiji: Fantastic, fantastic!
Krishnaji: You see, Sir, the other way is such a hypocritical state; it leads to hypocrisy. “I am seeking God”, but I am all the time kicking people. (laughs)
Swamiji: Yes, that could be hypocrisy.
Krishnaji: It is, it is.
Swamiji: That leads me on to the last and perhaps very impertinent question.
Krishnaji: No, Sir, there is no impertinence.
Swamiji: I am neither flattering you, nor insulting you,
Krishnaji, when I say that it is a great experience to sit near you and talk to you like this. Your message is great, and you have been talking for over forty years of things you have considered very important to man. Now three questions. Do you think a man can communicate it to another man? Do you think that others can communicate it to still others? If so, how?
Krishnaji: Communicate what, Sir?
Swamiji: This message, that you have dedicated your life to. What would you call it? – You may call it message. Krishnaji: Yes, call it what you like, it doesn’t matter. Am I – the person who is speaking, is he conveying a message, telling you a message?
Swamiji: No. You may call it an awakening, a questioning…
Krishnaji: No no. I am asking, Sir. Just look at it.
Swamiji: I guess we feel so, the listeners…
Krishnaji: What is he saying? He says, “Look, look at yourself.”
Swamiji: Exactly.
Krishnaji: Nothing more.
Swamiji: Nothing more is necessary.
Krishnaji: Nothing more is necessary. Look at yourself.
Observe yourself. Go into yourself, because in this state as we are, we will create a monstrous world. You may go to the Moon, you may go further, to Venus, Mars and all the rest of it, but you will always carry yourself over there. Change yourself first! Change yourself – not first – change yourself. Therefore to change, look at yourself, go into yourself – observe, listen, learn. That’s not a message. You can do it yourself if you want to.
Swamiji: But somebody has to tell…
Krishnaji: I am telling you. I say, “Look, look at this marvellous tree; look at this beautiful African flower.”
Swamiji: Till you said that, I hadn’t looked at it. Krishnaji: Ah! Why?
Swamiji: (laughs)
Krishnaji: Why? It is there, round you.
Swamiji: Yes.
Krishnaji: Why didn’t you look?
Swamiji: There could be a thousand answers.
Krishnaji: No, no. I asked you to look at that flower. By my asking you to look at that flower, do you look at that flower?
Swamiji: I have the opportunity, yes.
Krishnaji: No. Do you really look at that flower because somebody asks you to look?
Swamiji: No.
Krishnaji : No, you can’t. That’s just it. I say to you, You are hungry.” Are you hungry because I say it?
Swamiji: No.
Krishnaji: You know when you are hungry, and yet you want somebody to tell you to look at the flower.
Swamiji: I may know when I am hungry, but it is the mother that tells me where the food is.
Krishnaji: No, no. We’re not talking about where the food is, but we are saying “hunger”. You know when you’re hungry. But why should somebody tell you to look at a flower?
Swamiji: Because I am not hungry to look at the flower. Krishnaji: Why not?
Swamiji: I am satisfied with something else.
Krishnaji: No. Why aren’t you looking at that flower? I think first of all nature has no value at all for most of us. We say, “Well, I can see the tree any time I want to.” That’s one thing. Also, we are so concentrated upon our own worries, our own hopes, our own desires and experiences, that we shut ourselves in a cage of our own thinking; and we don’t look beyond it. He says, “Don’t do that. Look at everything and through looking at everything you’ll discover your cage.” That’s all.
Swamiji: Isn’t that a message?
Krishnaji: It is not a message in the sense…
Swamiji: No.
Krishnaji: It doesn’t matter what you call it – call it a message.
All right. I tell you that. You play with it, or take it very seriously. And if it is very serious for you, you naturally tell it to somebody else. You don’t have to say, “I am going to make propaganda about it…”
Swamiji: No, no.
Krishnaji: You will say, “Look at the beauty of those flowers.”
Swamiji: Yes.
Krishnaji: You say that. And the person doesn’t listen to you.
And there it is – finished! So is propaganda necessary? Swamiji: Propagation, Sir.
Krishnaji: Yes, propagation, that is the word – propagate. Swamiji: Yes. We are talking about these forty years of talking…
Krishnaji: …more than forty years…
Swamiji: Yes, millions of people have been talking for centuries, wasting their…
Krishnaji: We have been talking, yes. We have been propagating…
Swamiji: …something which is extremely important, which I’m sure you consider is extremely important.
Krishnaji: Otherwise I wouldn’t go on.
Swamiji: I have read some of the books you have published, but this experience of sitting and talking to you… Krishnaji: …is different from reading a book.
Swamiji: Completely, completely, different!
Krishnaji: I agree.
Swamiji: Last night I read one and there was a little more meaning. How does one bring that about?
Krishnaji: You are a serious person, and the other person being serious there is a contact, there is a relationship, there is a coming together in seriousness. But if you’re not serious, you will just say, “Well, it’s very nice talking about all these things, but what’s it all about?” – and walk off.
Swamiji: Yes.
Krishnaji: Surely, Sir, with any kind of relationship that has meaning there must be a meeting at the same level, at the same time, with the same intensity, otherwise there is no communication, there is no relationship. And perhaps that’s what takes place when we are sitting together here. Because one feels the urgency of something and the intensity of it, there is a relationship established which is quite different from reading a book.
Swamiji: A book has no life.
Krishnaji: Printed words have no life, but you can give life to the printed word if you are serious.
Swamiji: So how does it go on from there?
Krishnaji: From there you say, is it possible to convey to others this quality of urgency, this quality of intensity, and action which takes place now?
Swamiji: …really now…
Krishnaji: Yes, not tomorrow or yesterday.
Swamiji: Action, which means observation at the same level.
Krishnaji: And is always functioning – seeing and acting, seeing, acting, seeing, acting.
Swamiji: Yes.
Krishnaji: How is this to take place? First of all, Sir, most people, as we said yesterday, are not interested in all this. They play with it. There are very, very few really serious people. Ninety- five per cent say, “Well, if you are entertaining it’s all right, but if you are not, you’re not welcome” – entertainment, according to their idea of entertainment. Then what will you do? Knowing there are only very, very few people in the world who are really desperately serious, what will you do? You talk to them, and you talk to the people who want to be entertained. But you don’t care whether they listen to you or don’t listen.
Swamiji: Thank you. Thank you.
Krishnaji: I don’t say, “To the people who need crutches, offer crutches!”
Swamiji: No.
Krishnaji: Nor to the people who want comfort, an avenue of escape, “Go away somewhere else…”
Swamiji: …to the Palace Hotel!…
Krishnaji: I think, Sir, that is perhaps what has taken place in all these religions, all the so-called teachers. They have said, “I must help this man, that man, that other man.’,
Swamiji: Yes?
Krishnaji: The ignorant, the semi-ignorant, and the very intelligent. Each must have his particular form of food. They may have said that; I am not concerned. I just offer the flower, let them smell it, let them destroy it, let them cook it, let them tear it to pieces. I have nothing to do with it.
Swamiji: Well, they glorify that other attitude, the Bodhisattva ideal.
Krishnaji: Again, the Bodhisattva ideal – is it not an invention of our own, the desperate hope, desire for some kind of solace? The Maitreya Bodhisattva, the idea that He has relinquished the ultimate in life, enlightenment, and is waiting for all humanity…
Swamiji: Thank you.
***
Krishnaji: What is Vedanta?
Swamiji: The word means, “The end of the Vedas”…. Not in the manner of “full stop”.
Krishnaji: The end of all knowledge.
Swamiji: Quite right, quite right. Yes, the end of knowledge; where knowledge matters no more. Krishnaji: Therefore, leave it.
Swamiji: Yes.
Krishnaji: Why proceed from there to describe what it is not?
Swamiji: As I’ve been sitting and listening to you, I’ve thought of another sage who is reported to have gone to another greater one. And he says, “Look my mind is restless; please tell me what must I do.” And the older man says, “Give me a list of what you know already, so that I can proceed from there.” He replies, “Oh, it will take a long time, because I have all the formulas, all the shastras, all of that.” The sage answers, “But that’s only a set of words. All those words are contained in the dictionary, it means nothing. Now what do you know?” He says, “That is what I know. I don’t know anything else.”
Krishnaji: Vedanta, as it says, means the end of knowledge.
Swamiji: Yes, it’s wonderful, I never heard it put that way before. “The end of knowledge.”
Krishnaji: Freedom from knowledge.
Swamiji: Yes indeed.
Krishnaji: Then why have they not kept to that?
Swamiji: Their contention is that you have to pass through it in order to come out of it.
Krishnaji: Pass through what?
Swamiji: Through all this knowledge, all this muck, and then discard it.
PARIVEDYA LOKAN LOKAJITAN
BRAHMANO NIRVEDAMAYAT
That is, “After examining all these things and finding that they are of no use to you, then you must step out of it.” Krishnaji: Then why must I acquire it? If Vedanta means the end of knowledge, which the word itself means, the ending of Vedas, which is knowledge – then why should I go through all the laborious process of acquiring knowledge, and then discarding it?
Swamiji: Otherwise you wouldn’t be in Vedanta. The end of knowledge is, having acquired this knowledge, coming to the end of it.
Krishnaji: Why should I acquire it?
Swamiji: Well, so that it can be ended.
Krishnaji: No, no. Why should I acquire it? Why should not I, from the very beginning, see what knowledge is and discard it?
Swamiji: See what knowledge is?
Krishnaji: And discard, discard all that: never accumulate.
Vedanta means the end of accumulating knowledge. Swamiji: That’s it. That’s correct.
Krishnaji: Then why should I accumulate?
Swamiji: Pass through, perhaps.
Krishnaji: Pass through? Why should I? I know fire burns. I know when I am hungry, when I must eat. I know I mustn’t hit you; I don’t hit you. I don’t go through the process of hitting you, acquiring the knowledge that I’ll be hurt again. So each day I discard. I free myself from what I have learnt, every minute. So every minute is the end of knowledge.
Swamiji: Yes, right.
Krishnaji: Now you and I accept that, that is a fact, that’s the only way to live – otherwise you can’t live. Then why have they said, “You must go through all the knowledge, through all this?” Why don’t they tell me, “Look my friend, as you live from day to day acquiring knowledge, end it each day”? Not “Vedanta says so and so”.
Swamiji: No, no. Krishnaji: Live it!
Swamiji: Quite right. Again this division, classification.
Krishnaji: That’s just it. We are back again.
Swamiji: Back again.
Krishnaji: We’re back again to a fragment – a fragmentation of life.
Swamiji: Yes. But I’m too dull, I can’t get there; so I’d rather acquire all this…
Krishnaji: Yes, and then discard it.
Swamiji: In the religious or spiritual history of India, there have been sages who were born sages: the Ramana Maharishi, the Shuka Maharishi, etc. etc. Well, they were allowed to discard knowledge even before acquiring it. And in their cases of course, the usual argument was that they had done it all…
Krishnaji: In their past lives.
Swamiji: Past lives.
Krishnaji: No, Sir, apart from the acquiring of knowledge and the ending of knowledge, what does Vedanta say? Swamiji: Vedanta describes the relationship between the individual and the Cosmic.
Krishnaji: The Eternal.
Swamiji: The Cosmic, or the Infinite, or whatever it is. It starts well:
ISAVASYAM IDAM SARVAM
YAT KIMCHA JAGATYAM JAGAT
“Till the whole universe is pervaded by that one…”
Krishnaji: That one thing…
Swamiji: …and so on. And then it’s mostly this, a dialogue between a master and his disciple.
Krishnaji: Sir, isn’t it extraordinary, there has always been in India this teacher and disciple, teacher and disciple?
Swamiji: Yes – Guru.
Krishnaji: But they never said, “You are the teacher as well as the pupil.”
Swamiji: Occasionally they did.
Krishnaji: But always with hesitation, with apprehension. But why? – if the fact is, you are the teacher and you are the pupil. Otherwise you are lost, if you depend on anybody else. That’s one fact. And also I would like to ask why, in songs, in Hindu literature, they have praised the beauty of nature, the trees, the flowers, the rivers, the birds. Why is it most people in India have no feeling for all that?
Swamiji: Because they are dead?
Krishnaji: Why? And yet they talk about the beauty, the literature, they quote Sanskrit, and Sanskrit itself is the most beautiful language.
Swamiji: They have no feeling for…
Krishnaji: And they have no feeling for the poor man.
Swamiji: Yes, that is the worst tragedy of all. Krishnaji: Nor for the squalor, the dirt.
Swamiji: And heaven knows from where they got this idea because it is not found in any of the scriptures. That means we are repeating the scriptures without realizing their meaning.
Krishnaji: That’s it.
Swamiji:
Krishna:
ISHWARA SARVABHUTANAM
HRIDDESSERJUNA TISTHATI
“I am seated in the hearts of all beings.” Nobody bothers about the hearts of all beings. What would you think is the cause? They repeat it daily, every morning they are asked to repeat a chapter of the Bhagavad Gita.
Krishnaji: Every morning they do Puja and the repetition of things.
Swamiji: Now why have they lost the meaning? Obviously great meaning was put into those words by the authors. We are even asked to repeat them every day in order that we might keep them…
Krishnaji: Alive.
Swamiji: Keep them alive. When and how did I kill the spirit? How was it possible? How to prevent it?
Krishnaji: What do you think is the reason, Sir? No, you know India better.
Swamiji: I am shocked at it.
Krishnaji: Why do you think it happens? Is it over population?
Swamiji: No, overpopulation is a result, not the cause.
Krishnaji: Yes. Is it that they have accepted this tradition, this authority…
Swamiji: But the tradition says something good.
Krishnaji: But they have accepted it. They never questioned it. Sir, I have seen M.A.s and B.A.s in India, who have passed degrees, are clever, brainy – but they wouldn’t know how to put a flower on a table. They know nothing but memory, memory, the cultivation of memory. Isn’t that one of the causes?
Swamiji: Perhaps. Mere memorizing.
Krishnaji: Memorizing everything.
Swamiji: Without thinking. Why does man refuse to think?
Krishnaji: Oh, that’s different – indolence, fear, wanting always to tread in the traditional path so that he doesn’t go wrong. Swamiji: But we have discarded the tradition which they say didn’t suit us.
Krishnaji: Of course. But we find a new tradition that suits us – we are safe.
Swamiji: We never felt that the healthy tradition is a good tradition to keep.
Krishnaji: Throw out all tradition! Let’s find out, Sir, whether these teachers and gurus and sages, have really helped people. Has Marx really helped people?
Swamiji: No.
Krishnaji: They have imposed their ideas on them.
Swamiji: And others have used the same ideas…
Krishnaji: Therefore I question this whole thing, because they are really not concerned with people’s happiness.
Swamiji: Though they say so.
Krishnaji: If the Marxists and all those Soviet leaders are really interested in the people then there would be no concentration camps. There would be freedom. There would be no repressive measures.
Swamiji: But I suppose they think, we have to imprison the lunatics…
Krishnaji: That’s it. The lunatic is a man who questions my authority.
Swamiji: Yesterday’s ruler might be today’s lunatic.
Krishnaji: That always happens, that’s inevitable, that’s why I’m asking, whether it’s not important to make man, a human being, realize that he’s solely responsible.
Swamiji: Each one.
Krishnaji: Absolutely! For what he does, what he thinks, how he acts. Otherwise we end up in this memorizing, and complete blindness.
Swamiji: That is your message. And how to nail it?
Krishnaji: By driving it in every day (laughs). And driving it into oneself. Because man is so eager to put his responsibility on others. The army is the safest escape – you’re told what to do. You don’t have any responsibility. It’s all been thought out, what you should do, how you should think, act, carry your gun, how you should shoot – and finished! They provide you with a meal, sleeping-quarters, and for sex you can go to the village. That’s the end of it. And strangely they talk about Karma.
Swamiji: That is Karma. PRARABDHA KARMA
Krishnaji: They insist on Karma.
Swamiji: That is Karma – I was a Brahmin, and I know what happened. We played with that Karma and then it came back on us.
Krishnaji: Playing havoc now in India.
Swamiji: We toyed with the idea of Karma and we said: it’s your Karma, you must suffer. My Karma is good and so I’m divorced from it all; I’m the landlord. And now they have turned the tables.
Krishnaji: Quite.
Swamiji: A vegetarian – she’s a fanatical vegetarian – asked me, “Is pure vegetarianism necessary for yoga practice?” I said, “Not so important. Let’s talk about something else.” And she was horrified. She came back to me and said, “How can you say that? You can’t say that vegetarianism is of secondary value. You must say it’s of primary value.” I replied, “Forgive me – I said something, but it doesn’t matter.” I then asked her, “Do you believe in war, defence forces, defending your country and so on?” “Yes,” she said, “otherwise how can we live – we have to.” I replied, “If I call you a cannibal, how do you react to that? This man kills a small animal to sustain his life, but you are willing to kill people to sustain yours. Like a cannibal.” She didn’t like that – but I think she saw the point later.
Krishnaji: Good.
Swamiji: It’s so fantastic. People don’t want to think. And I suppose with you, Krishnaji, if you say the truth, you become very unpopular. A priest said:
APRIYASYA TU PATHYASYA VAKTA Shrota NA VIDYATE
Very beautiful! “People love to hear pleasant things; pleasant to say and pleasant to hear.”
The Guru and the Search: First Conversation with Krishnamurti
SAANEN FIRST CONVERSATION WITH SWAMI VENKATESANANDA 25TH JULY 1969
J. Krishnamurti and Swami Venkatesananda, Saanen 1969
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZo0kPCAndg
Dialogue 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oByk2UgRkzc&t=156s
Dialogue 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV4uDaWhguw
Swami Venkatesananda: Krishnaji, I come as a humble speaker to a guru, not in the sense of hero worship but in its literal sense, as the remover of darkness of ignorance, which the word guru stands for. ‘Gu’ stands for the darkness of ignorance and ‘ru’ stands for the remover, the dispeller. Hence guru is the light that dispels the darkness of ignorance and you are that light for me now. We sit in the tent listening to you, and I cannot help visualizing similar scenes. For instance, Buddha addressing the Bhikshus, or Vasishta instructing Rama in the royal court of Dasaratha. We have a few examples of these gurus in the Upanishads; first there was Varuna, the guru, he is very much like you. He merely prods his disciple with the words ‘Tapasa Brahma… Tapo Brahmeti’. What is Brahman? Don’t ask me. Tapo Brahman, tapas, austerity or discipline or as you yourself often say, ‘Find out’. And the disciple himself discovers the truth, though by stages. Yajnyavalkya and Uddhalaka adopted a more direct approach. Yajnyavalkya instructing his wife Maitreyi, used the neti-neti method. You cannot describe Brahman positively, but when you eliminate al the others, it is there. As you said the other day, love cannot be described, “this is it”, but only by eliminating what is not love. Uddhalaka used several analogies to enable his disciples to see the truth and then nailed it with the famous expression Tat-Twam-Asi. Dakshinamurti instructed his disciples by silence and Chinmudra. It is said that the Sanatkumaras went to him for instruction. When I read the descriptions of what Krishnamurti was when he was a young age, I am often reminded of that. These old sages went to him and Dakshinamurti just kept silent and showed the Chinmudra and the disciples looked at him and got enlightened. It is believed that one cannot realize the truth without the help, or whatever you call it, of a guru. Obviously even those people who regularly come to Saanen are greatly helped in their quest. Now, what according to you is the role of a guru, a preceptor or an awakener? Continue reading
Swami Venkatesananda en Español
III
INDIA
1. EL GURÚ Y LA BÚSQUEDA
Dos conversaciones entre J. Krishnamurti y el Swami Venkatesananda: Se examinan las cuatro escuelas de Yoga (Karma, Bhakti, Raja y Gnana Yoga).
Swami Venkatesananda: Krishnaji, vengo como un humilde interlocutor a un gurú, no en el sentido de «rendir culto al héroe», sino en el sentido de lo que literalmente significa la palabra gurú, que es: el que disipa la oscuridad de la ignorancia. La palabra «gu» quiere decir «oscuridad de la ignorancia», y «ru», «el que disipa», «el que aparta». En consecuencia, gurú viene a ser la luz que disipa la oscuridad de la ignorancia, y ahora usted es esa luz para mí. Cuando nos sentamos aquí en la carpa de Saanen para escucharlo, yo no puedo evitar la visualización de escenas similares; por ejemplo, la del Buddha dirigiendo la palabra a los Bikshus, o Vasishta instruyendo a Rama en la corte real de Dasaratha. Existen unos pocos ejemplos de tales gurús en los Upanishads; primero está Varuna, el gurú, quien meramente acicatea a su discípulo con las palabras «Tapasa Brahma… Tapo Brahmeti». «¿Qué es Brahman?» «No me preguntes». Tapo Brahman, tapas, austeridad o disciplina ‑o como usted mismo dice a menudo, «descubrir»- es Brahman, y el discípulo debe descubrir por sí mismo la verdad, aunque gradualmente, Yajnyavalkya y Uddhalaka adoptan un acceso más directo. Yajnyavalkya, instruyendo a su esposa Maitreyi, utilizaba el método neti-neti. Uno no puede describir a Brahman positivamente, pero cuando elimina todo lo demás, Brahman está ahí. Como usted lo dijo el otro día, el amor no puede ser descrito, «es», pero solamente eliminando lo que no es amor. Uddhalaka empleaba diversas analogías a fin de capacitar a sus discípulos para que vieran la verdad, y entonces la fijaba con la famosa expresión Tat-Twam-Asi. Dakshinamurti instruía a sus discípulos por el silencio y el Chinmudra. Se dice que los Sanatkumaras acudían a él en busca de instrucción. Dakshinamurti sólo guardaba silencio y mostraba el Chinmudra; los discípulos lo miraban y se iban iluminados. Se cree que uno no puede realizar la verdad sin la ayuda de un gurú. Es obvio que aún esta gente que con regularidad acude a Saanen, es muy ayudada en su búsqueda. Ahora bien; ¿cuál es, de acuerdo con usted, el papel de un gurú, un preceptor o un ser que despierta a otros? Continue reading
Swami Venkatesananda en Español – Introduction
Swami Venkatesananda visited acclaimed Theosophical philosopher Jiddu Krishnamurti (1895-1986) at his ashram in Saanen Switzerland in July 1969.
Swamiji and Krishnamurti had a great deal in common. Krishnamurti said he had no allegiance to any nationality, caste, religion, or philosophy, and spent the rest of his life traveling the world, speaking to large and small groups and individuals, as did Swamiji.
The two spiritual masters had a lot to talk about. Their conversations on July 25 were about “The Guru and Search” and on July 26 “Reflections on the Self” <http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-text.php?tid=945&chid=649> on the Four Mahavakyas from the Upanishads: “Communication”, “The Bodhisattva Ideal”, “Vedanta”, and “The Ending of Knowledge”.
These were recorded on video and audio. The conversations also became Part 4, “Conversations with Swami Venkatesananda” in the book, The Awakening of Intelligence, published by Krishnamurthi Foundation Trust in the United Kingdom in 1987, ISBN: 978-0-06-064834-3.
Krishnamurti’s lectures were widely translated into many languages. The Awakening of Intelligence became La persecución del placer, Volume III of El despertar de la inteligencia in Spanish translation, published by La Fundación Krishnamurti Latinoamericana in Buenos Aires Argentina in 1976 and 1994. It contains two conversations: “El guru y la búsqueda” and “Discusión acerca de cuatro «mahavakyas» de los Upanishads”. This is one of the few Spanish translations of Swami Venkatesananda.
venkatesalibrary 